Episode #223
JM Fortier: Farms For Food Sovereignty

JM Fortier is building more than a farm; he’s building a movement for food sovereignty in Quebec and beyond. As a longtime organic grower and founder of the Market Gardener Institute, JM has trained and mentored thousands of small-scale farmers across North America. His philosophy is simple: real food comes from real soil, grown with care by people who are connected to their communities. His work is a reminder that food sovereignty isn’t just about policy, it’s about people returning to the land, one farm at a time.

Our JM Fortier interview has been edited and condensed for clarity:

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Dave Chapman interviews JM Fortier at The Market Gardener Institute in Stanbridge, QC, April 2025

Dave Chapman 0:00
Welcome to the Real Organic Project Podcast. JM, it’s such a pleasure to be talking with you again.

JM Fortier 0:06
Yes, it is. This conversation just keeps getting better.

Dave Chapman 0:09
It just keeps going and going. It’s really fun for me to come up here. You just took me out for lunch to this wonderful café, which your family is involved with. It had delicious food, and it has farmer nights. I was saying, “I wish we had something like this in Vermont.”

Dave Chapman 0:15
You said, “When we started, we wished we had something like you have in Vermont.” It’s an example of building things out and that things do change and can change. Before we go too far – just to catch people up – what are the latest activities of the Market Gardener Institute? I know you’ve got a big list.

JM Fortier 0:48
The Market Gardener Institute – I started that in 2018. Now we’re doing online courses, teaching growers from pretty much all over the world. We have a pretty big network of people that are in the classes that we give. We have classes on flowers, market gardening, greenhouse growing, and crop planning. We’ve also a software that we’ve developed over the last few years called Heirloom – which if we have another moment together – I’ll show you. It’s really, really interesting.

JM Fortier 1:32
All of our work at the Market Gardener Institute is to help and empower people in their farming – that’s the goal that we have. I was talking to you about Canopy, a leadership program that we launched last year. It’s a three-day retreat, plus 6 to 10 weeks of online courses afterward. Again, our goal is to network people in different places, bring them together, and create the support group.

JM Fortier 2:01
When I started the Market Gardener Institute, I set a pretty big goal – we wanted to be directly involved in starting 10,000 new farms and reaching out to more than 3 million farm supporters. I did that, I don’t want to say like in a joke, but it was like, “Okay, put this big, hairy, audacious goal up there.” It’s been attracting a lot of fellow co-workers. They believe in the mission, and they’ve seen what we’ve done here.

JM Fortier 2:34
That’s one project. Then FQT Farm, which you visited some years ago, is still going on. I’m not head of that anymore. Catherine, whom you’ve also met, was there after me. She did that for two seasons. Now we have another farm manager – she’s amazing. I’m with them one day a week.

JM Fortier 2:54
We also have this farm-to-table restaurant, which is the headquarters of the Market Gardener Institute during the week. On Thursday, it flips into this restaurant where everything is from here – 100% local. I would say it’s fine-dining-ish. It’s country food – no white cloths – but it’s nice. That’s also in my projects.

Dave Chapman 3:25
You didn’t mention the new book that you have.

JM Fortier 3:28
A new book, yeah. A new book on gardening.

Dave Chapman 3:31
What’s it called?

JM Fortier 3:32
In French, it’s [inaudible 0:03:36]. I think it’s going to be “Harvesting Abundance” in English. I’m here at the old mill in the gardens, and people come and eat. They saw me on TV, and they know about me because I’m on TV a lot here in Quebec. They come and talk to me about gardening, and I’m like, “Huh, I could be teaching at least the fundamentals.” I took on this project two years ago and I landed it this December, sent it in, and then it came out two weeks ago. So, another project.

Dave Chapman 3:40
Yeah, it’s doing well.

Dave Chapman 4:12
It’s doing well. I’m excited that it’s doing well. There’s a lot of hype at this moment for self-sufficiency here in Quebec, generated by the trade wars. It’s amazing, the impact. I don’t think many Americans understand the trauma that went into having a president say that we would become the 51st state. It’s pretty traumatic for Canadians because they didn’t expect that.

Dave Chapman 4:38
We didn’t expect it either.

JM Fortier 4:39
No, I know. But that’s something that has steered something that I have never seen before. A little bit during COVID, you had that – people thinking about, “What’s my baseline here? What’s my safety net?” But that was a real existential trip.

Dave Chapman 5:02
That’s so interesting. That is inspiring people to grow food?

JM Fortier 5:06
Yeah, and to buy local and grow their own food. Plus, the recession – although it’s not named that – things are getting quite expensive. I think that’s what explains how a book like this… It’s popular right now. It’s number one right in Quebec.

JM Fortier 5:06
That’s great. Congratulations.

JM Fortier 5:16
Thank you.

Dave Chapman 5:35
When people go to the store, are the stores putting Product of Canada proudly on lots of things, and people are going, “Oh, good. I want to buy the thing that’s from Canada.”

JM Fortier 5:46
Yeah. Even in Quebec, which is pretty rare, because in Quebec, you know how we speak French and how we’re kind of different from Canadians? Everyone is one voice right now. I don’t think it’s going to last, but it’s interesting.

Dave Chapman 6:01
Right now everyone links arms as Canadians?

JM Fortier 6:04
Yes. There’s an election happening right now. It’s interesting times. I’ve always felt that we should be self-sufficient. I’ve been an advocate of food sovereignty for the last 10 years here in Quebec. Then I’m invited to different shows, and I talk about food sovereignty.

JM Fortier 6:28
It’s like an old record always saying the same thing: “We need more farms, we need to be the breadbasket of ourselves, and we need to be self-reliant. We need to invest in young farmers, blah, blah, blah, blah. But now people are listening a bit more.

Dave Chapman 6:42
I think people have been listening all along, but that number is growing. But your voice hasn’t been just a voice in the wilderness – a lot of people have been listening. It’s interesting to see international politics affecting that, though – impacting it.

JM Fortier 7:04
Yeah. But if you think about it, it’s really crazy, Dave, that overnight, you live in this country, and you imagine, “Oh, my God. If the army decides to come in here, there’s nothing we can do about it. We’re toast.” The only thing we have is diplomacy going for us. It’s just crazy.

JM Fortier 7:36
I don’t think it’s going to happen, but still, just the fact that a US president would voice that out loud as something that’s possible it has created a lot of… I don’t think it’s fear. It’s like, “Oh, my God, who’s my neighbor?” It’s a funny thing.

Dave Chapman 8:03
Who can I count on? Who can I rely on?

JM Fortier 8:12
Perhaps you didn’t want to go there. You didn’t want to open that door. I’m sorry.

Dave Chapman 8:15
No, no. I want to go anywhere. But I was wondering about the things that you have learned about building a movement, because I think about it a lot. I’ve said over and over, we need to have an organic movement, not an organic industry.

JM Fortier 8:35
I agree with that.

Dave Chapman 8:36
That’s right. The movement won’t forget what we’re about; we need to come together. It needs to be not just something that one person does – it’s beautiful when one person – a gardener – says, “Well, I’m going to grow the right food.” But when it’s a movement and your success helps me and my success helps you, that’s something else.

Dave Chapman 9:01
I know that you have worked at this. I think you’ve been remarkably successful. We’re not done yet, but you’ve been remarkably successful. What are the things that you’ve learned about building a movement? Do you have thoughts about that? Words for that?

JM Fortier 9:15
Yeah, I do. There are others out there, but I do feel that you and I strongly feel about that. It’s a movement. You always say this: “The movement is fragile. We need to take care of it and we need to nurture it just like a young plant.” For me, there are a few things: I’ve always felt on the shoulders of giants. I’ve always felt that it’s a continuum. Then there have been people before me and people before them, and I’ve always had this sense of place.

JM Fortier 9:21
Then there was a moment for me to also take some of these responsibilities and trying to share and give. I don’t want to say, “Show the way,” but lead a little bit with how I think what needs to happen, and I’ve done that. Also, for me, it’s about others. I have a lot of light on me, but I always try to flip it.

JM Fortier 9:59
For me, it’s not about me. It’s about, “I’m perhaps a good spokesman, a good teacher, and I can help you in this, but ultimately, I want you and you to succeed.” I think I’ve always been very clear on that, and my message has never changed. I do believe in that. For me, that’s leadership. I would say these two things are on my mind – how can I be of service, and what is my role in the big picture where everyone plays a role. Past and history.

Dave Chapman 11:04
How can you be of service? Even more to go to the next part of that, what are the things that you – and I don’t mean just you; I mean anybody – can do to help this thing that we think we need to grow?

JM Fortier 11:22
There are many ways. When I was in my early 20s, I thought that starting a farm was pretty radical in itself, and that was the way to have impact. I did that. Then I started a farmers market, and then I started another farmers market. I was part of a big CSA movement that we had here in Quebec. I helped develop that with others, and we were all together growing that movement.

JM Fortier 11:49
Then, because of Eliot – we talked about this a while ago – I got introduced to a wealthy businessman, and I started a farm school teaching organic farming and market gardening. My goal was to spread the number of people that were really good farmers. The Market Gardener Institute came out of that. Just like initiatives – initiatives here and there – they all share the same goal: to multiply the number of farms and eaters that are sensitive to that.

JM Fortier 12:29
I’ve used different strategies along my career to do that. The restaurant is another example – I’m bringing people from everywhere down here to eat local food. In the winter, we go in the greenhouse, they see what’s possible, and they eat it. I’m like, “This is food sovereignty, folks. This is it.” For me, that’s an example of how to…

JM Fortier 12:52
I did TV. TV was also about showcasing what’s possible and what’s out there. I feel I’m talking a lot here. I guess just like doing all these things, super positive, and illustrating that all of this exists and it’s possible. That’s been my way.

Dave Chapman 13:18
I see it works, so it’s good. You can see things are growing out of that soil. Let me ask you, what are the challenges of success? I’m very aware, in organic, of the challenges that we face as a movement because of our success. If we were unsuccessful, then there’d be 500 farmers scattered all over who were doing the right thing, and they’d be feeding a small group of people.

Dave Chapman 13:51
But we’ve seen millions of people in America turn to organic, seeking an alternative to that chemical food system. All that is wrapped up in that. It’s not just the poisons on the food or even just the nutrition. I think they’re seeking many things. They’re seeking some different kind of community and animal welfare for the meat that they eat.

JM Fortier 14:21
Localism.

Dave Chapman 14:21
Localism. When people go to buy organic milk, they are not thinking of Aurora Dairy. They would be horrified. As we said, if there was a little video, they wouldn’t buy that. They would go, “No. I want Butterworks. I want Larson Farm.”

Dave Chapman 14:40
With the success, though, there come challenges. There are forces attempting to compromise it. It gets very confusing. I’m curious if you have seen any challenges from the success of your efforts.

JM Fortier 14:59
I think that for me, it’s been only the last few years that I’ve seen that our movement wasn’t evolving as I thought. It was all growing. Our CSA movement in Quebec, in 2017, had 350 farms and 20,000 to 25,000 people networking together in a CSA movement. That network is not like that anymore. It’s not as strong by at least two-thirds.

Dave Chapman 16:20
Why?

JM Fortier 16:26
That’s my answer. The setbacks that I’ve seen are that I haven’t seen us being well-organized together. I don’t know why. My farming community here is very tight because of… You just went to the café where we are. But still, between us, it’s not like we’re aligned to do something together. It’s very complicated.

JM Fortier 16:59
I do feel that the fact that we’re not grouped together in a systematic way, or, I don’t know the right words, but like we’re not affiliated, it’s not helping us. But then I see a decentralized system; I see all these farms that are independent all over the place, and so I feel that that’s where we haven’t had success. Does that make sense?

Dave Chapman 17:31
Yeah. I’m trying to get the words. There hasn’t been success in having a strong, unifying vision amongst all those people?

JM Fortier 17:40
And some outcomes. Let’s say you run a business, like for me with the Market Gardener Institute. We’re all aligned because I’m the head of it. I have all these people that share the values, we’re moving forward, and things are moving quite fast.

JM Fortier 17:59
Anytime I’ve tried to work with all the other growers on projects, it’s been really difficult. I think that’s because we’re stubborn and we’re hardheaded people. But I do feel that our movement, if it was just a bit more organized and structured, somehow we would have more results. That’s what I see as something that hasn’t been so successful.

Dave Chapman 18:26
Have you thought about ways that you might become more successful? I’m curious. For example, you’ve written books and made training courses and all this about how to farm, but it’s different from books and training courses about why to farm or what are the issues that we face together that we must address together. Are you thinking of turning more in that direction?

JM Fortier 18:57
No, because I don’t feel confident and strong enough. I’m still learning so much about the history and the current situation. You have the opportunity to travel, talk to a lot of people, and see what’s going on. I was farming full-time two years ago, and now I’m stuck with all these projects that I started.

JM Fortier 19:24
Frankly, I’m super disappointed in Quebec – the leadership that we had on different movements. I was often disappointed about what’s out there in terms of leadership.

Dave Chapman 19:43
It gets very complicated when talking to people about why, much more complicated than how. I find it even complicated to talk about how. With what I do, I don’t know if I ever will do that masterclass on tomatoes, because I go, “Who would care?” What we do is so complicated. I don’t know if anybody would have the attention span to go, “Yeah, okay, I want to learn that.”

Dave Chapman 20:10
People want something a bit simpler. I don’t mean that in a condescending way; it’s just their model is different from what it is that we’ve learned how to do. But the conversation about why, and about not how to farm, but how to farm in this meaningful way together – how to build that movement – that’s a more complicated conversation.

JM Fortier 20:34
It is. You are one of the people who has influenced me and inspired me to open my blinders: “Okay, JM, this is also what’s happening.” I think ultimately, we all have a role to play. I’m really good at teaching and being present with people that way.

JM Fortier 21:04
I’m building tools to help growers in their daily lives, and I would certainly follow the leadership of somebody that’s asking me to do things. I just don’t feel that at this point, that’s going to be my position in the movement. I’m doing my leadership role by trying to uplift as many people as I can in the movement. That’s really how I want to do it.

Dave Chapman 21:29
Let me ask you a funny question about movements. Do you think that the movement we’re talking about is already there in the community just waiting to be revealed and to flower? Or is this almost something new that needs to be cultivated?

Dave Chapman 21:52
I don’t know if this is too weird a question. But when I started in the Real Organic Project, I felt that it was all there. We had thousands and thousands of farmers who agreed with me, and we had millions of eaters who agreed with me. We just needed to go, “Hey, look what’s happening. This isn’t what we meant; we all care about what we care about. Let’s come together.”

Dave Chapman 22:26
I thought it was something that just needed to be revealed. But I’ve discovered that it’s a little more complicated than that – for me. I was just curious if you had a thought about that. You’ve brought a lot of people together.

Dave Chapman 22:41
Dave, I’m always listening to you. For me, insights are in the people that have these insights. I never really thought of it that way, but I do feel that to organize a view or energy, there needs to be a system and a catalyst. Or you have all these influences that are not connected, and they’re all doing their work.

Dave Chapman 23:25
I’m a decentralized kind of guy, so in a way, I’ve always believed in helping others to spread and do their thing. I’ve never myself tried to strictly organize everyone together. With the Market Gardener Institute, a bit more, because we’re creating a network, but it’s not a union and it’s not political anything. If anything, I’ll use my channels to spread the message that I think is relevant.

Dave Chapman 23:57
So, I still haven’t found my way around these issues. In Quebec also, we have a union. It’s an obligatory union. All the farmers in Quebec need to pay a fee – a union due. It’s by law; you need to be in the union. That union is really strong, super well-organized; it’s very, in a way, democratic, but it’s protecting chemical farming. I’ve always felt also it’s not representing me and my fellow farmers that are different.

Dave Chapman 24:56
When Emma Goldman was exiled from America for being an anarchist and a communist back in the day, she went to Russia, which was Stalin-era Russia, and it was not the revolution that she had in mind. She left, and she said, “Well, if I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.”

Dave Chapman 25:26
We aren’t monolithic. Everybody has their own perspective and point of view – that’s good and to be honored. The question is, can we find our common cause? It’s hard because there are always forces that want to divide us.

JM Fortier 25:42
I think the organic standoff is that. I think rallying around organic is important – I do strongly believe that. I think the idea of scale, also – we’ve talked about this before – that I believe in smaller scales because then that’s another way of getting young people into farming. I don’t think we can rally around that. But around the organic piece, I think yes. How to go about it, I’m sure.

Dave Chapman 26:27
Speaking about scale, a question I have – we’ve talked about it – but is it your dream to bypass stores entirely and develop an alternative food system with CSAs, farm stands, and more direct-to-consumer relationships between farmer and eater?

Dave Chapman 27:17
Or is it your hope that we will also be able to go to whatever your local supermarket is and find good local, organic food on the shelf?

JM Fortier 27:11
So far in my life, I’ve seen that it’s not really possible to be in these stores and it being super local. We have a few examples here. We’ve been selling our salad mix to the local grocery store for, like, 20 years. Even when they get the one from the chain, people don’t buy it – they stick to ours.

JM Fortier 28:26
But so many times I’ve been in conversations with the folks – for us, where we are – at Sobeys, Canada. I’ve tried so many times, and it always comes down to, “Yeah, but do you have the volume?” And no, we don’t. Even when you try to put all these small farms together and have somewhat of a volume, it becomes complicated.

JM Fortier 28:43
I’m thinking, yeah. The store should be buying directly from local farms, and they should be selling that, and then people should be wanting to pay for that. Otherwise, we’re competing against centralized superpower farms and industries. I think there’s going to be technology that’s going to come in for food hubs.

JM Fortier 28:26
I think if you can eliminate the middleman in transportation and distribution, as long as we get more for what we grow, it’s possible to have a small farm. But if you need to have volume to have the income you need, then small farms won’t be in the equation.

Dave Chapman 28:50
It wasn’t that long ago with our customers at my farm – 10 or 15 years ago – that there was a pretty big ‘buy local’ move amongst all the chains in New England. I think both Shaw’s and Hannafords – two chains – now both owned by multinationals, but they weren’t at that point; they were independent. They sent up film crews, took pictures, and interviewed us about, “How’s this working for you?”

JM Fortier 28:51
You were winning.

Dave Chapman 29:28
We were all winning. It was beautiful. I’m like, “Oh, this is actually going to work out.” They were competing with each other to have really good local offerings. It was a big thing. One store – Wegmans, which we sold to – just put us on the shelf.

Dave Chapman 29:48
Then, one time in the middle of the summer, they started their local island. Everything there was local, and so they put our tomatoes there. Our tomatoes have been in there for many months. All of a sudden, our sales doubled. It doubled at that one store.

JM Fortier 30:03
I like that story, Dave.

Dave Chapman 30:04
It’s a true story. I was like, “Whoa. Everybody wants it.” But they didn’t notice it. They had to have it pointed out to them that these are local. All of those are gone. All of those impulses and campaigns by the stores are gone. What happened? Well, I think one thing that happened is all the stores…

Dave Chapman 30:28
Wegmans is still independently owned by the Wegmans family, but the others I mentioned were all bought up – Hannafords, Stop & Shop, FreshDirect, and Giant – all bought up by Ahold U.S.A. Huge, huge multinational chain.

JM Fortier 30:44
Centralizing everything.

Dave Chapman 30:45
Right. Shaw’s, I think, got bought by Albertsons, although it might have been Kroger. It’s hard to tell them apart because they’re trying to merge, if they can. As that happens, they’re not even competing with each other; they’re just competing on price. But nobody’s trying to offer that kind of quality and delight to their customers. It’s getting tough. It’s tough.

JM Fortier 31:09
But I like the first part of the story better.

Dave Chapman 31:12
I do too. I don’t see why we couldn’t do it again, but we have this challenge now because all of those chains are owned by a couple of chains, and they would rather buy everything from one or two suppliers. It’s easier and cheaper, so they figured their profit could be more. There’s less customer delight, but people just have to put up with it.

Dave Chapman 31:35
When Stop & Shop dropped us because our tomatoes…we had sold to them for 20 years. They loved us. Then they got bought up by Ahold. After three years, we just couldn’t make it work because they just wanted a lower price. I’m like, “Your customers are buying these; they’re happy. Charge what you need to charge. I don’t care. They don’t care. They’ll do it.” They wouldn’t do it. So, we lost the account, and we went elsewhere.

Dave Chapman 32:09
We got unhappy people contacting us, going, “Why aren’t you on my shelves anymore? I want to eat your food.” I said, “I’m sorry. It wasn’t our fault. They don’t want to buy.” This one woman just cracked me up. She was so great. She says, “You must be smarter. You have to make this work. What am I going to do? I can’t eat your tomatoes anymore. I want to eat your tomatoes.”

Dave Chapman 32:36
I said, “Well, you can get hydroponic tomatoes now from Mexico instead.” She was like, “They’re not good. I don’t want those.” But the store didn’t care. There was nothing I could do. All right. I was just curious.

JM Fortier 32:52
How does that go away? Anytime you and I, Dave, talk about this, I always end up in this cul-de-sac, where I’m like, “I don’t really know.” But the story that you just said, this is my view of the movement – what you’ve lived through.

JM Fortier 33:15
Stores are buying it, customers are excited, the stores are coming to film us, everyone knows where this comes from, and everyone wants to support it. It’s fresh, healthy, and good, and it’s from here. We buy it. The stores make money, we make money, and customers are happy.

JM Fortier 33:31
This is the only thing that I care about. There’s not much more to it than that. But if that’s not possible anymore because of corporate takeover of either the local grocery stores, are we going to open independent stores or co-ops? It’s a pretty big thing.

Dave Chapman 33:55
It is a big problem.

JM Fortier 33:56
It’s a pretty big problem. I don’t have a solution for that. But I was excited about that part.

Dave Chapman 34:03
I’m sorry.

JM Fortier 34:03
No, no. That’s fun. It’s sad; I’m realizing that not that many people get that part. You’re the one that got me thinking about this more. But now, whenever I’m in the newspaper or on the radio or whatever, and I’m asked about, “Why aren’t small farms more proliferating here in Quebec?” I’m like, “But we’re competing against multinationals. What do you expect? What do you want us to do? We’re totally disorganized. There’s nothing we can do.”

Dave Chapman 34:48
You’re still putting out a better product than they are.

JM Fortier 34:51
Yeah, we are, for sure.

Dave Chapman 34:53
The quality of what you’re offering people as food they can’t touch.

JM Fortier 34:57
They can’t touch. It’s unmatched. Meeting us every week is unmatched. It’s even gotten to a point here where people are saying, “Oh, yeah. There’s proof that small farms aren’t working. You see a lot of them are going out of business, and blah, blah, blah.”

JM Fortier 35:15
I’m like, “Really? It’s not because people don’t want to farm; it’s because there’s a systemic barrier – we’re competing against multinationals who own the food system in every grocery store.”

Dave Chapman 35:33
Let me ask you, you’ve spent a fair amount of time in recent years in the EU, in different countries. You’ve seen a different food system from the Canadian and the US ones.

JM Fortier 35:46
They have great food co-ops in France.

Dave Chapman 35:48
They have great food co-ops in France. In Denmark, the co-op is the major chain. Half the food in the country is sold in the co-op chain. We also see in these countries tremendous government support for organic, and it’s pretty real organic. I’m sure it’s not perfect, but it’s pretty real.

Dave Chapman 36:12
They certainly don’t allow hydroponics. They don’t allow confinement livestock – the CAFOs – and they’re pretty strict about grain fraud. Much, much stricter than the US. In those countries where there’s a genuine commitment, a lot of money is being spent to support this farming. The goal is set: we’re going to make 25% of our food be certified organic by the year 2030.

JM Fortier 36:12
Which, Dave, has changed now.

Dave Chapman 36:45
Have they stepped back from it?

JM Fortier 36:46
They’ve stepped back from it.

Dave Chapman 36:49
Was it the farmer protest with the burning tires that made them step back?

JM Fortier 36:52
Environmental law [inaudible 0:36:53] diminish that, but it’s still present.

Dave Chapman 36:56
It’s still present. It’s still much stronger than the US. I’m just curious about your thoughts about the potential role of government. I think that part of why they’ve been so successful is a couple of reasons. One reason is they come with a deep food culture already in those countries.

Dave Chapman 37:18
In the US, it’s where the term “Wild West” comes from. It’s our Wild West, but we don’t really have a food culture. Also, they have managed to engage the government as an ally in this mission. In the US we have not, and now it’s actually gotten much worse in the last three months than it was.

Dave Chapman 37:41
So, there was a lot of government support coming for this, and now it’s being pulled away. I’m just curious, in your mind, JM… Everything is a long shot. You go, “Where am I going to put my chips on? On which number am I going to put my chips?”

Dave Chapman 38:02
Do you think that it’s viable that we might be able to bring government to support better agriculture? The government in America puts a lot of support into chemical agriculture. That’s why it’s so powerful.

JM Fortier 38:20
Again, I might disappoint you with my answer because it’s not a fully fleshed-out answer. I’ve seen this in France and in Germany. I’ve also come to realize that what it has done is that it has created a network of organic farmers that don’t talk to young farmers, because once they have the markets, they don’t want to share it.

JM Fortier 38:50
It becomes, again, an idea of scale because these farms are big farms getting bigger, well-organized, and well-structured. How do you self-regulate that? There’s not always a grower that’s getting more land, farming more without creating all these bizarre kinds of laws of, “You can’t be bigger than that, and we need to share supply.” So, it leaves out the young people in farming.

JM Fortier 38:53
These farmers that I’ve met – that I train in Europe – the pioneers in organic farming that are very good farmers – the best of the best – they haven’t passed it down to the younger generations, because why would they? They own the market; they don’t want to share it. That’s true.

JM Fortier 39:44
Regardless of what’s being said or not, this is something that I’ve heard for… I’ve seen it. The young people are looking for a way in to farming. It’s hard for them because even if they’re at a farmers market, or they’re at a CSA, or they’re doing restaurants, organic is available. It’s not perfect, either. You know what I mean?

Dave Chapman 40:08
Yes, I do. I would take that as a given. It’s never perfect. There were problems.

JM Fortier 40:15
Here in Quebec, we have a lot of policies and regulations, and the government is involved in farming. I always say this: young people wanting to start farms, we have grants from $20,000 to $40,000 to start your farm. That’s a great help, especially if you’re a smaller farm, because $40k goes a long way.

JM Fortier 40:43
For now, I really want to bring back the power to the people that are buying, and I do feel that they have the power to change the food system – the eaters. If they decide to buy somewhere and not buy elsewhere, I think ultimately they have the power to influence the food system. That’s where my thought is right now. I might be wrong. No, no, I’m not saying I’m right.

Dave Chapman 41:10
No, that’s great. You would say, rather than focus on government support to think about how do we cultivate eater support at a level where things can change?

JM Fortier 41:24
Yes. For example, if I were running the government here, I would want to make sure that… Quebec is a really big place. We have farms in all the areas. These farms, their kids go to school, and that creates economy in these areas. I would want to make sure that we’re spreading out the numbers of farms. Not to have few big farms here where it’s really nice, with good soil, perfect for tractor farming on 10, 20, 50, or 100 acres.

JM Fortier 41:28
I would have a policy where it was intentional that we’re trying to spread the number of farms. So, I would have a policy where it’s heavily marketed to buy local. Then I would cite Vermont as the example of how to do it, which brings us to where we are. You’re from Vermont. I would want to recreate exactly the story that you described earlier.

Dave Chapman 42:29
Yes, but it’s history now.

JM Fortier 42:31
I know. So, my story doesn’t work?

Dave Chapman 42:33
Well, there’s still a lot of local buying in Vermont, but still, I bet less than 2% of the food that is sold in Vermont is grown in Vermont.

JM Fortier 42:43
It’s crazy. Imagine the the level of consciousness that was in Vermont about supporting local farms, even on you guys’ driver’s plates. It says ‘support local”?

Dave Chapman 42:57
I don’t know.

JM Fortier 42:59
I don’t know. Perhaps that’s why I’m not involved in these policy decisions because I don’t really have an answer.

Dave Chapman 43:07
Well, nobody has an answer. One thing is for sure: if I ask anybody, “Well, what do you think we should do?” Everyone gets this goofy grin on their face and rolls their eyes because they don’t know. Nobody knows.

Dave Chapman 43:19
Let me change channels for a minute. We’ve talked a lot about economics and politics. Let’s talk about horticulture for a minute. What are the horticultural lessons you’ve learned in your life? Are you still learning new stuff? I don’t mean just a tiny detail, but are you going, “Oh, now I have a whole different understanding of how this is working”? I’m just curious.

Dave Chapman 43:47
I was just down in Florida, and I spent all day walking around Hugh Kent’s beautiful blueberry fields. What he’s doing is just phenomenal with this living mulch. He and Lisa have developed this living mulch. It’s not unique in the world, but it’s not common either. We were talking a lot about what the impact is on the soil and on the plants.

Dave Chapman 44:16
He’s got these 15-year-old plants that should be done, but they’re not done – they’re highly productive. I think it’s because of what he’s done in his soil. So, I’m just curious, he keeps getting new ideas. I was looking at it and going, “Oh, my God. Could I do this with tomatoes?” He’s got a permanent living mulch with these plants. I thought, “Maybe I could.”

JM Fortier 44:42
You have your system, so it’d be like, “Oh, my God. It’s like starting anew.”

Dave Chapman 44:49
It’s scary. Everyone told him when he started, “This won’t work. You’re going to have terrible yields.” He doesn’t. He has higher than average yields for chemical farming. He’s right up there, and he’s doing it with this whole different system. This is a question of, do you have, in any way, an evolving understanding of horticulture?

JM Fortier 45:16
Yeah. At this moment in time, I have two areas where my mind is focused. First of all, for the listeners, perhaps just to state, for me, I’ve always farmed on two acres or less. We grow in greenhouses like you did also. There are these two things: it’s small acreage, but it’s quite professional in the greenhouse. Not to the level perhaps of your farm, but we’re good in greenhouses.

Dave Chapman 45:45
I’ve seen it. You’re quite good in greenhouses.

JM Fortier 45:48
For me, it’s always been how to look at output from a small acreage. That’s always been my area of focus, research, and interest. At this point in time now, I’m working on software that is helping growers plan where their crops go and what they’re going to be replaced with, and what these are going to be replaced with, and what these are going to be replaced with on that same acreage.

JM Fortier 46:22
With AI in it – because AI is in the platform. It is in Heirloom – it’s taking this output scenario so much further. It used to be I would have Days to Maturity on a crop (DTM), then I would reverse engineer it, and then plug that. But now in Heirloom we have Days to Maturity for a specific crop, which changes with the cultivar, connected to real-time weather, past and future with the forecast, connected to soil temperatures, which is creating a DTM that is dynamic.

JM Fortier 47:13
I’m developing this with kids that are 21 year olds, and they don’t know what they’re doing. They don’t know that no one has done that before. They’re just finding the right tools to connect all these tools together, and they’re creating this thing. I don’t even know if it’s going to work, but according to them, it will. They’re fully confident.

JM Fortier 47:31
These guys are young engineers. That, for me, is getting really interesting because at the Market Gardener Institute, we’re farming 40 to 60 different crops. So, these levels of detail matter – they make a difference.

Dave Chapman 47:55
The rotation from crop to crop is a big part of enhancing the fertility of the soil.

JM Fortier 48:03
Exactly.

Dave Chapman 48:03
Can you talk about why?

JM Fortier 48:05
Yes. That leads me to my second aha moment. Advancing Eco Agriculture, Inc., have you heard about these guys?

Dave Chapman 48:17
No.

JM Fortier 48:17
John Kempf. He came to our Canopy retreat program last year and gave a talk. He’s obviously given that talk many times, because it was well-rehearsed. It was the right punch at the right time, and it was a well-told story. But essentially, what he’s saying is that, which is something that I’ve read and heard Eliot Coleman and others say, like, “If you get everything right in the soil, you won’t have any disease and you won’t have pests, and I can guarantee that.”

JM Fortier 48:17
I’m like, “What? You can guarantee that? It’s hard to believe.” In 20 years of farming, I’ve never had anything be… He says, “Yeah, we just need to do the SAP analysis, correlate that with all of the data that we have, do soil sampling, and debunk all your soil problems, putting the right trace minerals at the right time, and you won’t get any pests and diseases.”

JM Fortier 49:16
I’m like, “In my tomato greenhouse? Whiteflies, botrytis… are you sure?” “Yeah.” He says, “I’m sure.” I’m like, “Okay.” A very convincing guy. Now we’re doing a research program with them – the Market Gardener Institute and Advancing Eco Agriculture, Inc. We’re doing these trials where we’re trying to think, “Is that going to work?” In greenhouses we’re grafting, but honestly, besides that, it’s tomatoes year after year after year in soil.

Dave Chapman 49:56
And he thinks he can make that work?

JM Fortier 49:58
Yeah.

Dave Chapman 49:59
That’s really interesting.

JM Fortier 50:00
Yeah. With SAP analysis, he’s like, “I’m getting the exact temperature of what’s wrong,” because he has all this database. It’s connected to what’s going on. It’s this famous pipe dream: no disease, no pest. Really? I’ve never believed that in my life. I was reading Eliot…he was talking about that. It’s like, “I don’t believe that. You need to put up an insect net. I’m sorry.” But he made me a believer. So, I’m now looking into that a bit more.

Dave Chapman 50:37
I’m excited about that. We’ll see where it’s at in two years. I’ve heard very good things about John’s work, so it will be interesting to hear.

JM Fortier 50:46
I want to share one more thing about that. It’s going to interest you. When we did our research partnership – we’re just finalizing it. We’re going to announce it soon with John and AEA – one of the reasons why this is not out there is because all the farms that he’s been working with, they don’t want people to know about it because they’re competing against…

Dave Chapman 51:09
The same with those old farmers in Europe. It’s a real thing. That gets in the whole world of intellectual property. In a competitive system, what you know is valuable if the other person doesn’t know it.

JM Fortier 51:30
Unless you’re a small farm and you’re not competing on volumes. For me, I’ve always thought that the market, the scale is, I don’t want to say problematic because we need to, whatever. The reason why these small farms are mushrooming all over the US and in Europe is because they’re not busted on volume, and they’re not competing with one another. So, there’s a lot of sharing, movement, and engagement. I just wanted to throw that…

Dave Chapman 52:11
That’s really interesting. Next time we’ll go deep into that because I’m not done with it. But I did want to ask you; this is an interesting thing. I’ve been talking a lot with Eliot. He’s about to have a book come out about the self-fed farm. I’m sure that you’ve talked to him about it.

JM Fortier 52:27
Didn’t he call it, like, “Please Till,” or “Till,” or “The Tillage Book,” or something like that?

Dave Chapman 52:33
I don’t know. It might be called the self-fed farm. That’s his principle, and he’s very excited about it. It’s a big evolution from when I first met Eliot. He was a classic market gardener at that point. He was also doing some extensive agriculture, not just intensive.

Dave Chapman 52:54
When I met him, he was at the Mountain School. They had fields, all this livestock, a couple acres of vegetables on a hilltop, and some greenhouses. When I met him, my memory of the conversations is that it was a great deal about compost and the quality of the compost. It was a very traditional market gardener model.

Dave Chapman 53:18
The market gardens were always in little rings around the cities – they would take their vegetables in, and they would bring back the horse manure at the end of the day. It was a beautiful cycle. It was a virtuous circle. Eliot, over the years, has read more and more and gotten more and more intrigued by green manures instead of compost.

Dave Chapman 53:41
Of course, there’s a long tradition of that because the livestock farmers and the row crop farmers weren’t doing that intensive composting. They didn’t have that volume of compost. Eliot’s solution – because he’s now just a guide on the farm – was still an intensive market garden, but it was rotating between the green manure field and now a cropping field. He’s taking it pretty far. I think it’s a very exciting idea.

Dave Chapman 52:33
Is that anything that has intrigued you? Or you go, “Look, I’ve only got two acres. I need to crop all of it every year. I need to bring that organic matter from someplace else.”

JM Fortier 54:27
No, you’re touching on something… I do feel that from what I’m reading in the literature I’m into right now, the root systems are very important for soil balance – not just on a chemical or physical level, but the roots talk to different things. The roots are very important. I’m not the most scientific guy. I’m more about operations. I like how things are operating on the farm…

JM Fortier 54:27
Because it works.

JM Fortier 54:42
On our farm, we have a 10-year crop rotation, and we do have a green manure program. We used to have green manure of two or three different species. Now it’s like 15 or 12 species – we’re just mixing everything in. We’re able to connect these green manures with the cropping system because we’re flipping, and we’re very tight on when the crops are planted and what they’ll be replaced with.

JM Fortier 55:42
We’re able to have one field out of three in green manure every year and a crop rotation where it takes 10 years for a botanical family to get back to the original place. It’s fairly complex. I guess the part that we’re not doing is fallowing – leaving land uncultivated for two seasons.

Dave Chapman 56:14
Fallow is not a good word because sometimes they mean bare soil.

JM Fortier 56:18
Yeah. It’s just like leaving them. Our green manure is, like, 10 to 12 weeks, and then it’s flipped. Or in the winter there’s a green manure planted there. Leaving the soil to rest and develop roots for a few years is something that we don’t do. Because of the logistics of market gardening, the irrigation system is so important. It’s centralized, the downtime…there’s a lot of benefits of having everything super centralized and small.

JM Fortier 56:27
When I’m talking with John and Advancing Eco Agriculture, Inc., what’s interesting with them is that compost and green manure – both of them, whatever – ultimately what we’re talking about is making sure that the soil is responsive and alive as much as possible.

JM Fortier 57:15
What’s the right recipe for that? I don’t know. Perhaps for one kind of farm, it’s that; for another farm it’s that. An organic greenhouse grown in soil – it’s going to be hard to rotate and leave your greenhouse in a green manure for a full season. That’s a lot of money.

Dave Chapman 56:22
Are you rotating crops in a greenhouse with tomatoes? Or are you saying, “No, there’s our tomato house,” which is kind of the standard?

JM Fortier 57:35
Yeah. For 20 years. But we do get botrytis and whiteflies, and we do get problems, and we need to deal with them. But what if we didn’t have any? I’m still kind of a sucker for it. I’m like, “Is that possible?”

JM Fortier 57:48
Do you get any powdery mildew?

JM Fortier 58:04
Yeah, we get powdery mildew.

JM Fortier 58:06
And John thinks he’ll be able to solve that?

JM Fortier 58:08
Yeah. I like it. Why not?

Dave Chapman 58:11
Yeah. It’s wonderful. I don’t know…

JM Fortier 58:13
But maybe. I’m interested. I guess when I say, “I’m a sucker,” he sounds pretty convinced.

Dave Chapman 58:27
He’s very smart. He’s a great salesperson.

JM Fortier 58:29
I would say to him, like, “Why isn’t anybody talking about this?” He’s like, “Well, why would they?” I’m like, “Okay. interesting point.” Because they sign NDAs with all their customers. They can’t go off and…

Dave Chapman 58:45
The customer wants the NDA?

JM Fortier 58:47
Yeah.

Dave Chapman 58:47
Okay. All right. Well, we will see. I would love to see you resolve powdery mildew by getting your micronutrients right in your soil.

JM Fortier 58:59
You’ve probably heard that before.

Dave Chapman 59:01
Yeah, but I’ve never seen it. There are certain varieties that just seem to get powdery mildew, and other varieties don’t. We have insect problems too, and I do think those can be resolved. We don’t use sprays; we use beneficials. But that’s my hope with the living mulch, that…

JM Fortier 59:30
That it would generate that…

Dave Chapman 59:31
That you would balance. Not just in the soil, but you get balance in the insect population too. I don’t know. It’s a nice idea, but we’ll find out.

JM Fortier 59:44
It would be like, let’s say the greenhouse is covered by a tapestry of different species, and then you poke a big hole, and then you plant a tomato plant there.

Dave Chapman 59:54
Yeah, and you would keep them mowed. You wouldn’t allow a three-foot rye. You’d mow it at, I don’t know, eight or 10 inches and keep it down, trying to keep some things flowering, etc., etc. We must have talked about Helen Atthow’s book on living mulches.

Dave Chapman 1:00:17
It’s fantastic. I really recommend it. She’s a really smart researcher. She worked with her husband for years on this, and now that her husband has died, she’s alone in Montana working on it. She made a beautiful book. It’s technical and full of information. I just haven’t had the courage to go do it, but I’m going to do it, and we’ll find out. We’ll just see what happens.

JM Fortier 1:00:45
Well, I’m interested in that.

Dave Chapman 1:00:46
Yeah. Let me change channels for a minute. I wanted to ask you about your thoughts on hydroponics. I know we’ve talked about it, but I wanted to step back and get an oceanic view of your thoughts.

JM Fortier 1:01:01
I feel exactly like hydroponics is not the way forward. I believe in soil a million percent. I believe we don’t understand anything about soil. I believe that when you and I die, we’ll go back to the soil. I think soil is the great energy. For me, there’s nothing in hydroponics – it’s like feeding on intravenous bags, like in the hospital. Why would you want to be fed by that? Ridiculous.

JM Fortier 1:01:42
I see it as a big, big barrier to human health and the evolution of farming. Towering farms, hydroponic farms – perhaps they’re needed in deserts and places where it’s… but the Earth is not just that. There are many places where we could have trees, birds, prairies, and gardens. We can talk about that, but I’m not a big fan.

Dave Chapman 1:02:14
Let me connect that to something else, which I’ve been hearing a lot about – the concept of Food Is Medicine. It’s not a new idea; until 100 years ago, all medicine was food, activity, and environment. Doctors understood that, “Well, what are you eating? And can we change that?”

Dave Chapman 1:02:38
With the drug revolution – and it was a revolution – it changed people’s minds, and it had tremendous effectiveness in some ways, but people started to ignore food as being unimportant, which is obvious not the case to me. So, I’m just curious; have you heard about that? Have you thought about it? It seems directly connected to the issue of hydroponics.

JM Fortier 1:03:01
For me, this is where I come from – this whole Food Is Medicine idea. Grow healthy soils, healthy plants, and healthy people. The Rodale original equation, if you want. I see a lot of people coming and knocking on our doors because that’s their own personal route.

JM Fortier 1:03:23
They’ve become really sick. They’re sick; they realize that it’s because of the food. Then they look at the food and go beyond organic from the store, and they realize healthy soils, good farming, good farmers, and energy. Then they come back to us and say, “Okay, we want to help.”

JM Fortier 1:03:41
I just feel that’s the winning proposition that we have: living soils, understanding how soil – we don’t understand anything – growing good plants. For me, hydroponic is not even something that [inaudible 1:04:0] I’m like, “Oh, my God, why? Why are people…?”

JM Fortier 1:04:10
I see all these venture capitalists; man, it’s ridiculous. They’re all talking about food systems and food sovereignty. I’m like, “What the hell? You guys are on the wrong path – completely.” Then I will talk to them about having all these small farms that are feeding the world. They’re like, “Eeh.” “Let’s develop the software to help them all.” “Eeh.” It’s really gadgets, whistles, bells, and robots.

JM Fortier 1:04:46
We have this project here in Quebec…now you’re getting me fired up, Dave. It was called Les Fermes d’Hiver, which is like a winter farm. That was just pre-pandemic. The government here invested millions of dollars – like ten million dollars – in that project. They were developing a technology to grow strawberries year-round. I was like, “Why? Why would you want to grow strawberries year-round, first of all?” Second of all, they’re all hydroponic towers with technology in it.”

JM Fortier 1:05:22
Everyone was parading on how Quebec was going to be the leader of indoor strawberries. Five years later, they’re out of business. It’s ridiculous. It’s like, “Why?” We could have helped start probably 2,000 young farmers with that kind of money – getting them greenhouses, giving them a learning lesson, and a tool kit for them to learn how to grow.

JM Fortier 1:05:56
But then we’re back to the market problem. It’s not a supply problem; it’s a market problem. That’s what I think. It’s not a supply problem. The demand is there. People are going to start farming and get it done, but there needs to be a demand.

Dave Chapman 1:06:13
Well, and there even is demand, but there needs to be demand that is protected from fraud. I was just listening to an interview that I did with a great guy, Chuck Benbrook. He said, “Well, the problem in Washington State – where he’s from – is not supply.

Dave Chapman 1:06:39
Twenty percent of the apples in Washington are organic now, and we could make it 80% pretty easily. There’s no market demand.” He said, “That’s organics problem all over – there’s not enough demand.” I thought, “Well, yeah, but it’s a little more complicated, Chuck. The truth is we’re importing half of the certified organic corn, two-thirds of the certified organic soy, say, 40% of the certified organic vegetables, and 60% of the certified organic berries.”

Dave Chapman 1:07:14
The problem is that a lot of stuff is coming in that we don’t think is really organic. Why would anybody in the world be able to grow corn and soy cheaper than the US? We’re exporting it. We feed the world with that. That is one place where it’s true, and yet we’re importing all this so-called organic stuff. That becomes a much more complicated problem to deal with. You’ve got these organic grain farmers going out of business.

JM Fortier 1:07:43
Yeah. I think it boils down to democracy. Who’s in governance? Who are these people? Why are they elected? Who are they accountable to? What are they representing? That’s, unfortunately, a big problem.

Dave Chapman 1:08:03
It is a big problem. All right. I have a lot more to talk about, but we’re running out of time. We promised that we would stop because the cameras are going to stop. You suggested that some of the things that have been great successes for your first book. “The Market Gardener Masterclass” might not be so successful now – times have changed.

Dave Chapman 1:08:27
Did I say that?

Dave Chapman 1:08:28
Yeah, especially about “The Market Gardener Masterclass,” not so much about the book. The world’s different. Now, you go to YouTube, and there are a million things for free, some of them quite good. I don’t think that it means that technology is more transformational now, but I just think the world changes. There was a really interesting interview I had with Malcolm Gladwell, and he was saying… This is the most successful author of nonfiction.

JM Fortier 1:09:00
I’ve just read his last book, which is really poor, by the way.

Dave Chapman 1:09:03
Is it?

JM Fortier 1:09:03
Yeah.

Dave Chapman 1:09:05
I haven’t read that.

JM Fortier 1:09:07
I’m really surprised how poor the book was because he’s amazing.

Dave Chapman 1:09:10
He’s an amazing writer and thinker. Most of what I connect with him on now is his podcast. He’s got a very powerful podcast – very good. That was his point in this interview. He said, “Well, at this point, a book that comes out, the audio version, might well be more popular than the written one. Yet, until recently, all we’ve done is write books and then make an audio version where we hire an actor to read it.”

Dave Chapman 1:09:11
He said, “I’m rethinking this and starting to think about making audiobooks in which maybe we’ll make a written version out of it.” I thought, “Okay, this is really interesting – that the platforms that we use for communication are changing. They’re evolving, and it would probably be good for us to evolve with them.

JM Fortier 1:10:02
I can tell you this: neither the “The Market Gardener: A Successful Grower’s Handbook for Small-Scale Organic Farming” nor “The Market Gardener Masterclass” is going out of style anytime soon, because both of them take a lot of time for people to understand everything that’s in there.

JM Fortier 1:10:18
Some folks will read “The Market Gardener: A Successful Grower’s Handbook for Small-Scale Organic Farming,” and if they are new to farming, it’s going to open their eyes to, “Oh, wow. This is possible.” Somebody that’s in year two will read the book and get that passage on crop planning: “Ah, okay, I get that.”

JM Fortier 1:10:33
Then in “The Market Gardener Masterclass,” it’s four years of filming on a high level of farming knowledge. For somebody that’s looking at the video for the first time, it’s going to take years for them to pick up all these small pieces to fully digest it and apply it with success.

JM Fortier 1:10:54
But I think a tool like “The Market Gardener Masterclass” what it does is it takes somebody that could have learned this over six or seven years, and in year two or three, they’re at that level. So, we’re shortening the learning curve. We know that because we have…

JM Fortier 1:10:56
And make it more likely that they will reach that stage.

JM Fortier 1:11:18
Yes, a new height. If you top that with the fact that they’re not always growing the farm, then they get mastery sooner, and they get the right economics sooner. These are the testimonials that we’re getting at the Market Gardener Institute. For me, the next frontier is technology – for sure.

JM Fortier 1:11:44
We’re not talking about robots. We’re talking about having better foresight, about planning, harvesting, and operations – perhaps connecting it to accounting so that everything’s generated really fast. It’s always about saving steps and time. I think that’s the next frontier, and that’s what I’m working on pretty intensively right now.

Dave Chapman 1:12:13
My last question: as you become more focused on education, you are learning new skills. Both new skills of communicating and team building. Team building, both internally and externally, so connecting to that. I’m curious: can you tell me about the lessons you’re learning now and what new skills you’re developing?

JM Fortier 1:12:44
Oh, my God. This is a big question.

Dave Chapman 1:12:46
That’s what I wrote. I said, “This is a lot.”

JM Fortier 1:12:51
I had mastery over what I was doing, and I kind of got sidetracked into these projects that I had started: Growers, Heirloom, and the restaurant. I had a business partner doing the business, and then we had a falling out, and so I took over the business.

JM Fortier 1:13:15
What I learned is I’m not a great businessperson to run an operation like this. I don’t have the skill set, patience, and the right management skills. I’m used to run a market gardening crew, where we go out in the field, and we give it and we work super hard, and it’s like, fast work and fast reward. Harvest the radishes, bring them to market, boom, boom.

JM Fortier 1:13:41
Then I’m with a team of people that have a six-month plan or an 18-month plan. I hired people to do the work. I’m with them trying to not talk as much as possible. That’s what I learned. I learned that I have my limits. What I learned in market gardening, I can’t translate it directly into how to run a business. It was hard because I took some beatings before I got that. So, I don’t know.

JM Fortier 1:12:59
That’s my lesson. Frankly, I don’t want to be like a super business CEO. That’s not what I want to do. I want to be a teacher, help people, and be part of the movement. Eventually, I want to hang out with my girlfriend, go surfing, and do other stuff. I have my limits of how much I want to accomplish, even if I’m very driven. So, that’s what I learned: I learned about myself – my limits.

Dave Chapman 1:14:55
All right. JM Fortier, thank you so much. We made it just barely with five minutes to spare before the cameras blow up.

JM Fortier 1:15:07
You always asked me these big questions. I’m like, “Oh, my God.” Our movement is not in the best of shape, but I can tell you, Dave, because I meet them, there are a lot of young people that are into it. They’re there. When they hear folks like you and others that have been there, it’s very important that they hear these stories.

JM Fortier 1:15:07
Like the story you said about how everyone was buying from the supermarket, this is what everyone is thinking is going to happen in their own path. It’s like, “Okay, but what if it falls through?” I do feel that there’s always this importance of continuum – connecting with younger generations and with…do we say elder or older? How do you say it? Wiser?

Dave Chapman 1:16:01
Old people?

JM Fortier 1:16:02
No, not old people, but just like the people that have done it before that have the insights. Wisdom. I believe in wisdom a lot now. Now that I know what it is, I’m like, “Oh, wow, you want that. You really want that.” I think you offer that.

Dave Chapman 1:16:19
All right. Thank you, JM.

JM Fortier 1:16:22
Yes.